Sat inside a crammed central London sandwich shop, Pele flashes those world-renowned pearly whites. After the week Lionel Messi’s had, football’s greatest ever knew exactly what was coming
‘I never saw myself play, but I think I was the better player,’ the 74-year-old tells Sportsmail, complete with beaming grin.
As Thierry Henry said of Messi on Wednesday, you don’t get to be this good without having a bit of an ego.
Three months after leaving a Brazilian hospital following a urinary tract infection and now with a clean bill of health, Pele has plenty to tell. Much more than playfully scoring points against the magician who mesmerised Manchester City on Wednesday night.
He explains Steven Gerrard’s decision to jet off to America this summer as one taken to wind down, relax and retire, while he considers Liverpool’s clash against Manchester United to be matched only by El Clasico in terms of global appeal.
Contrary to hysteria, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with English football, he continues, despite a fortnight which may end up serving as a nadir for the game in this country.
And he cites the reason for a lack of success internationally as being largely down to our best players finding themselves ‘too comfortable’ in the British bubble and unwilling to move abroad at their peak.
But it is when the names Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are mentioned that Pele truly comes alive. They are the pair who rival him - he of three World Cup-winners’ medals - Diego Maradona and Johan Cruyff as the all-time genuine superstars.
The eyes widen, hands coming up to articulate his point. There is a sense that these two are the only men to really excite a man who has seen it all.
Not shy, he is more than happy to settle debates which have raged in pubs and on concourses across Europe for the best part of a decade.
‘The two best at the moment are obviously Ronaldo and Messi,’ he says. ‘Which is the best one? Messi has been the best player of the last 10 years.
‘That level, the player who played at the same level for 10 years. It’s massive. He never plays badly and is a very quiet guy.
‘Ronaldo is that striker who scores goals, but Messi does that and helps with assists.’
So, Messi is top dog; how does the Argentine compare to the original luminary?
The grin emerges.
‘I think I was a little better in the air,’ he adds. ‘I used to kick it with both feet.’
There are more serious matters at hand for the Premier League at present. This campaign has been hellish, our elite embarrassed and all dumped out of continental competition by Easter.
That matters little to a scorer of 650 league career goals.
‘Oh yes, definitely’ he says when asked if the Premier League remained the best division in the world. ‘It pains me as a Brazilian, but I have to say that. Even after the struggles in Europe this week. Remember, losing is part of the game. But there is no doubt that it’s the top league.
‘I don’t think there’s anything wrong - it’s something you can’t explain.
‘Use this as an example. It isn’t the same, but similar. Brazil have won five World Cups, but the two we played in Brazil we lost. You can’t explain that.
‘I was nine years old for my first World Cup watching. We played Uruguay in the final at the Maracana - I was with my father - and we lost. I said “what happened?” My father cried and he said “Brazil have lost it”.
‘We’ve won five now - I was lucky enough to win three. But now the World Cup in Brazil... we lost! It’s the same with the football in England. They have good teams, good players.
‘One thing I would say about English players is that they don’t have experience of playing abroad. You don’t see them playing in South America or Japan. The English players should be playing outside, but it’s too comfortable to play here.
‘To play in South America is more complicated - they need that experience. That’s the only thing you can say about England.’
Two Englishmen who will ply their trade elsewhere come next season are Gerrard and Frank Lampard, both set for the MLS with LA Galaxy and New York City FC respectively.
It is 40 years since Pele was in America’s cultural hub with a Cosmos team including Franz Beckenbauer and Carlos Alberto. Only now is the perception of the country’s major division changing, although the Brazilian says stars still head stateside to unwind.
‘I like Gerrard very much. If I could pick a team, he would be in it. I don’t know how he feels. He’s chosen to go to the MLS, the same as Kaka.
‘If you want to rest and retire, the competition there isn’t as big as it is over here. Maybe he wants to relax a little bit.
‘During my time we had Beckenbauer, George Best, Zico and Carlos Alberto. But people don’t realise that the United States has a good level of football.’
Pele places Gerrard on a pedestal with the great Beckenbauer, both making his World XI.
Asked where the Liverpool skipper would rank among the best midfielders of all time, he compares him with Germany’s biggest ever star.
‘Maybe people don’t remember, but Beckenbauer had the same style,’ he adds. ‘I like Gerrard, he is a similar intelligent player. There is no doubt they’d both make my team.’
As for the rumble on Merseyside this weekend – it will be the sixth time Pele has visited Anfield – there is a simple message: the North West has the exact same appeal of El Clasico.
‘They are very, very similar games. It’s one of the best in today’s game. I always look forward to going to Anfield. I love to see good football.
‘Barcelona have excellent players. It’s not only Lionel Messi, but Xavi and Neymar. Maybe they have more individuals, but as a team Liverpool are the same.’
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